Taku Chambers

ADVOCATES OF THE CAMEROON BAR
SENIOR ADVOCATE:
Chief Charles A. TAKU, Esq. (Head of Chambers)
Lead Counsel, UNICTR
Lead Counsel, Special Court for Sierra Leone, Counsel ICC
Honorary Member of the Law Firm of Angus Gloag and
Jonathan Goodman and Co.
ADVOCATES
Caroline MUNGE TIME
Shufai Blaise SEVIDZEM B
Chief NJI Jerome FOTULLAH
AWUNGNJIA Tetchounkwi
Lawrence LYONGA NGANDA
Publications & Decisions
Post New Entry
Official Transcript: Charles Taku (Full Interview)
|
Interview Summary
Charles Taku discusses the failure of the ICTR to prosecute RPF members. He refers to a form of
‘judicial genocide’ through which Hutu victims are denied justice and the Tribunal perpetuates
violence through impunity. He notes that the Office of the Prosecutor (OTP) should investigate
crimes based on the acts committed rather than on ethnicity or political affiliation. Taku also
discusses the controversial principle of joint criminal enterprise which he claims has been abused by
the OTP to indict individuals without sufficient evidence.
The transcript of the interview begins on the following page.
Role: Defense Counsel
Country of Origin: Cameroon
Interview Date: 3 November 2008
Location: Arusha, Tanzania
Interviewers: Batya Friedman
Ronald Slye
Videographer: Max Andrews
Interpreter: None
Charles Taku
© 2009-2015 University of Washington | Downloaded from tribunalvoices.org
This work is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License
1
Part 1
00:00 Batya Friedman: Hi, my name is Batya Friedman, I’m a professor at the University of
Washington. I’m here interviewing Chief Taku. It is November 3rd, 2008 and with me
is Professor Ron Slye from Seattle University Law School and Max Andrews who’s our
cinematographer. So, Chief Taku, could I ask you to please introduce yourself? Say
your name, your role here at the ICTR and your nationality.
00:29 Well, as you’ve rightly said, my name is Chief Charles Taku. I’m Lead Counsel in the
Military 2, 2 trial. I first came here in 1999 as Lead Counsel for Laurent Semanza. I’m
also Lead Counsel in the Special Court for Sierra Leone in the, the case of Prosecutor
versus the Revolutionary United Front for Sierra Leone. I’m Lead Counsel for Mr. Morris
Kallon. And I’m Lead Counsel here in the Military 2 trial as I’ve just said. I come from
Cameroon.
01:05 BF: Thank you.
01:06 Note: Gap in Interview. Gaps occurred due to interruptions during the interviews,
technical issues, or corrupted data files.
01:10 BF: So can you tell us a little bit about your role as, as Lead Counsel? And when you
say Lead Counsel, you mean Lead Counsel for the defense?
01:18 Yes, I’m Lead Counsel for the defense.
01:20 BF: Yes.
01:20 I first came here on the 23rd of October 1989 as co-counsel on the case of Prosecutor
versus Laurent Semanza. And a few months after, I became Lead Counsel and I’ve been
Le-, Lead counsel all along. The case of Semanza ended in sometimes in 2004, and I was
appointed Lead Counsel in 2005 at the Revolutionar-, for the Revolutionary United
Front for Sierra Leone. That’s for Major Mo-, Morris Kallon.
01:56 And two months after I was appointed here again as Lead Counsel in Military 2, as Lead
Counsel for Major François Xavier Nzuwonemeye who was the commander of the
Reconnaissance Battalion of the Rwandan army.
02:13 And I work as Lead Counsel and actually coordinator for a legal team constituted by
the, the tribunal to defend the accused persons. And I have under me co-counsel and I
have a number of legal assistants and investigators. And Lead Counsel, I direct the
team, the defense team as it were.
02:41 And now Beth Lyons, whom you know, became co-counsel about more than a year ago.
I met her here on a visit from the US and when I was doing Semanza, she was sitting in
the gallery. And when she went back she sent a card to me and I found that very, very
touching because many (_______) thousand who come and nobody does that. And I
said this must be a very good lawyer so I invited her to come back here and join the
team.
Charles Taku
© 2009-2015 University of Washington | Downloaded from tribunalvoices.org
This work is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License
2
03:14 Unfortunate for me, when she came, my former co-counsel Alao, Barrister Alao, he’s
from Benin Republic, he had become a Lead Counsel for Colonel Aloys Simba. So he was
fast, faster than me and he got her as co-counsel in that team.
03:32 And when the, the case ended, I was happy enough to bring her back to come and work
with me. So, as I say, Lead Counsel’s the one who coordinates the entire defense of an
accused person and that’s the role I play either here or in Sierra Leone.
03:49 BF: Mm-hmm. So, I’d like to take you back to the spring of 1994.
03:56 Yeah.
03:57 BF: And, so in 1994 in the spring, where were you and what were you doing at that
time?
04:05 Well, about that time I was in Cameroon. I, I followed the story like every other person,
about what was happening in Rwanda unfortunately. Of particular interest to me was
the fact that the elements that led, the factors or the elements that led to the, the
calamity in Rwanda are present in many African countries, including my own country.
04:36 The conduct of the politicians, excruciating poverty, economic factors, and of course
the duplicity of international community in situations like these. So I followed the
events and I followed the events painfully as I watch over the television or listened to
the news. There was nobody there to do anything to, to help these people of Rwanda
to solve this problem.
05:11 And most striking of all was the fact that United Nations was actually there on the spot.
And what came to my mind was what use is the United Nations? What use is United
Nations that even their presence cannot pre-empt a calamity of that nature? So I was in
Cameroon but later (_________) that I would play a role in the, one way or other at
some point in time.
05:36 BF: So, and what were you doing in Cameroon at, at that time, in your country?
05:42 Well, in Cameroon at the time, we, we were facing a serious crisis at the time because I
come from the English-speaking part of Cameroon. And these were two Trust
Territories who were under the British and the, the French majority were under the
French. And were, as Trust Territories, that the UN had a mandate to lead to
independence.
06:07 It was never foreseen in the UN charter that, well, it could lead to what at the time we
thought was annexation – that instead of leading our own part of the country to
independence, because we're a former German colony and a Trust Territory of Great
Britain, the, the (______) brought us into what we considered as some form of
annexation in that our own party was just annexed to the French Cameroons.
Charles Taku
© 2009-2015 University of Washington | Downloaded from tribunalvoices.org
This work is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License
3
06:36 And the people, population was agitating at that time. Thousands of people were
agitating that they want independence, not (_____) independence. The, the policies of
the, the, the majority in power, the French majority in power, were very oppressive.
06:52 And, at that time I had been on the bar council, (_____________) of the bar council and
also one of the perhaps very visible lawyers at the time because a lot of people were
arrested, many of them died in detention.
07:07 And at least in ‘92 people were brought before the military court and they were being
indicted before the military court, civilians of course, for treason. That carries
mandatory death sentence under the Cameroonian military court.
07:26 And I was Lead Counsel defending these, these, these people. The case was going on
around the time that this was ha-, was happening and we just thought that oh, maybe
this crackdown may lead to some other serious crisis.
07:43 At that time we need also not just to defend the courtroom but to get international
support, because we thought that the, the military people were not people who can do
justice to civilians, especially as there was no reason to bring them to military court in
the first place. These were civilians; they were not armed. There was, there was no
reason to bring them there.
08:06 More importantly but because they were arrested from the English-speaking part of
Cameroon and carried over to the French-speaking part to be subjected under different
legal system and to be tried in a language they didn’t understand.
08:18 And we were busy trying to rally international support, the embassies in Yaoundé. And
at some point in time I left and went to Washington and thought that we could, the
press in Washington could help us.
08:30 I went to the Voice of America. Scott Steel was still a very young reporter at the time
preparing at the time to come to the Great Lakes. So, he was asked to interview me and
I was there with him in the program "English to Africa" for over a week highlighting the,
the problems with this trial, that the, the fair trial issues. And of course he did a very
effective job.
09:01 At the end, when we came back, this, the Voice of America actually helped us in really
propagating, I mean, our own side of the story, because back home the media is
controlled by the government, so nobody could have known that whole story. When I
came back now, almost, most of the people were acquitted but a few of them (__),
some 20 years, some 15 years, I think one or two life here.
09:29 And for us in, under the circumstances, it was a victory – thanks to the Voice of
America, thanks to the international community because the US Embassy in Yaoundé
also they were very interested in the case. They came to me at every turn and they
were in court at every session of the trial. So these, these two events were going on
simultaneously with what was happening in Rwanda.
Charles Taku
© 2009-2015 University of Washington | Downloaded from tribunalvoices.org
This work is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License
4
09:52 And the, the – we were telling the journalists at Voice of America, was telling the
Cameroonian government, “Let there not be another Rwanda. This is leading to
another Rwanda; this is leading to genocide,” and so on and so forth. And therefore
you will be surprised that it is my performance on that case that cleared the role in me
being called upon, shortly thereafter, to come and defend here.
10:15 BF: Mm-hmm.
10:16 Yeah.
Part 2
00:00 BF: So how, how did that happen, how did you end up here at the ICTR?
00:06 It was surprise. My name was not on the list of, of lawyers because I didn’t know the
procedure at that time. But after that case in Cameroon I came over here. And I said
“Look” – I heard that sub-, subsequently, I heard that the court had been constituted –
and I said “Look, let me have this experience, because this may well happen to us at
some point in time as long as our problems subsist, and as long as the momentum is
building that will lead to this.”
00:40 “So let me come.” So I came to Arusha and when I came here, I met one of the
secretaries and I said, “Look, I want to know how to, one can, can become a lawyer
here in these proceedings.” So she got me some forms, “Fill these forms.” I filled them
and somebody signed and my name was put on the list. And I left here and went to
Washington and I was in Washington for about three months.
01:06 And one day I got information from Cameroon that they were looking for me in Arusha.
And that I’d been called upon to come quickly to be co-counsel for one of the accused
persons. And when I came here, I didn’t know anybody here in Tanzania apart from the
(______) here, and it was very, very exciting and I met the accused and I discovered
that the accused was a former mayor.
01:36 He was no longer in command, he had no position and he was not as literate as the
others would be. And I started working for him and sometimes in February, there was
an interlocutory appeal that had been filed challenging his arrest and detention,
because the defense at the time felt that the, the arrest and detention were illegal.
There was no warrant and when they obtained the warrant for another person, they
used that warrant to arrest him and he was brought here.
02:11 So the, the Lead Counsel withdrew from the case and the appeal chambers had
indicated that they were going to come here two weeks thereafter to, to hear the
interlocutory appeal. And they wrote to me and said, “Well, you have to be prepared.
We’re coming, we, we cannot postpone the session so you should prepare for the
interlocutory appeal.”
02:37 So I went on reading the transcripts and preparing the briefs and, and when I did the
arguments and it was good, one of the judges, Judge (________) was very impressed.
Charles Taku
© 2009-2015 University of Washington | Downloaded from tribunalvoices.org
This work is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License
5
Of course on the other side I had the, the Prosecutor with seven prosecutors, Carla Del
Ponte herself. And the, and the advantage I had is that all the seven of them decided
to, to argue the appeal and I found a lot of contradictions.
03:02 It was easy when the other, the other person got up, he contradicted the other person
and that was the situation. In the end, the remedies I, I was seeking that he should be
set free, we didn’t get that, but we heard midway that (______) the trial proceed.
03:20 If he’s convicted, they should take into consideration the arrest, the illegal arrest and
detention, and that should affect in the sentencing. And that is why I think at the end of
the day that, that we benefited from that.
03:34 BF: So when you first came to the tribunal and you wanted to participate here as a
lawyer, did you clearly say, “I want to participate on the side of the defense,” or did
you, were you open to being both a prosecutor on the prosecution side and the
defense? What, what was your thinking?
03:54 My thinking was to be on the side of the defense and the reason is very, very clear. I
already knew that there was some politics involved in the court by the f-, mere fact that
the UN was present in Rwanda and they did nothing. And I knew that if the very UN
should constitute a court to try the alleged perpetrators, they would try to hide their
role or the role of the UN officers who were in the field.
04:22 I already knew and, or suspected this, and therefore I told myself, I went on the side of
the prosecutor I’ll be complicit in this. Let me be there so that I can have the
opportunity to see through this case and see all the complexities of this case. See all the
politics about that case. So in case that it happens again, I will be in a position from that
(_____) to be able to take part in trying to point out the, the politics of that.
04:53 It is this suspicion of the political intrigues that might have informed the creation of the
court especially from the standpoint of the UN. And my suspicions were proved right
thereafter, because the UN from inception, from the Security Council, from the
Secretary General report, now characterized the conflict as an internal arms conflict,
but you know this is a major component of war crimes.
05:26 The evidence now points otherwise. It points that Uganda was involved. It points even
to the mere presence of the UN itself, some of its officials. Now which (_________) that
they were trying to conceal, to pre-empt any attempt to litigate the role of the UN and
that of some of the neighboring countries and some of the superpowers that were
complicit in one way or other, either by commission or omission, to the thing that took
place in Rwanda.
05:54 So my suspicions were right in that, although I didn’t have the picture as this, but as
evidence unfolded and people now feel more comfortable to testify (____). But the
court cannot (_______) finding because their hands are tied; the Security Council
including the court, Secretary General, all they said was an internal arms conflict.
Charles Taku
© 2009-2015 University of Washington | Downloaded from tribunalvoices.org
This work is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License
6
06:13 And of course ordinarily an independent court should be in the position to disagree
with the Security Council – that in spite of your position that it’s an internal arms
conflict, the evidence points otherwise. Of course that’s another issue.
06:29 It all depends if the judges themselves who are United Nations appointees, Security
Council appointees from different member states, if they’re bold enough to go that far.
That’s another issue but my suspicions exceptionally have been proved right.
Part 3
00:00 BF: So if, thinking about tribunals in the future and you can imagine that we may
have others, other situations that arise where a tribunal is needed – we might not
want that but that might be the case – what kinds of checks and balances would you
put in place in how other tribunals are constituted to try and address this problem?
00:23 Well, in the first place, the statute here guarantees the independence of the judges.
The statute also guaranteed independence of the Office of the Prosecutor. And I think
this independence of the Office of the Prosecutor has been abused to the extent that
the Prosecutor in refusing to indict the RPF perpetrators, even when the Security
Council mandate directed clearly that all the people without distinction, that per-,
perpetrated the crimes should be indicted.
01:01 In spite of the fact that the, the RPF itself has admitted – in spite of the fact Prosecutor
himself has said so many times that, “We’re investigating the RPF, they will be
indicted.” The fact that the Prosecutor is unable to do this, presumably due to other
influences, and he can hide behind prosecutorial independence, I think it’s an abuse of
the notion of independence.
01:28 There should be an, an organ, an organ to hold the prosecution to account. To say,
“Look, your mandate, you’ve not been able to meet the, the, your mandate. You’ve not
been able because, you’ve turned the tri-, the, the court into a victors’ court,” and that
at the end of the tribunal, the c-, the, the, the – at the end of the tribunal, there’s every
indication that the violence will start all over, as long as one of the parties believe that
they too were victims.
02:13 They believe that justice has not been totally done, (_____) victor’s just-, justice. And as
the, the, the factors that led to the crisis in the first place remain with thousands and
thousands, no, millions of Hutus now as refugees, not in the sub-region but across the
world, they will be telling they want to come back to Rwanda.
02:36 They want to regain their land, the land issue remains unresolved. They, they, they
want free and democratic elections – one man, one vote under international
supervision. They want that this injustice should, should be, sh- – of course we know
exactly that the, the conflict is still playing out now in the Congo.
02:58 Now, as long as the Prosecutor cannot prosecute the RPF, the perception that the
tribunal has condoned impunity will remain. And therefore that will be a viable factor
Charles Taku
© 2009-2015 University of Washington | Downloaded from tribunalvoices.org
This work is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License
7
to start the war again, (______) tribunal. As long as the tribunal is here, and the ability
to arrest, it serves as some form of – it pre-empts.
03:30 You see, people will look at the tribunal as it is on the continent, not only in Rwanda,
but in the African continent. It serves as a monument to people who may like to, to, to
take up arms and kill people at that massive scale. That, “Oh, look, that could be you.
Those people there, that could be you.”
03:49 But as long as the tribunal is not and as long as the many dictators in the continent can
continue to, to stonewall in ratifying even a treaty of the ICC or if there were to be a
special tribunal of this nature, they will use all sort of limitations of – I mean they’ll
(________) to limit their participation to, to, to make sure that they can't, they’re not
held accountable.
04:26 They’ll put the politics of it ahead. As long as the African Union remains a club for
dictators on the continent, they don’t really have the power to say no. I believe that
that, that act of impunity that has been condoned by not going after all the perceived
perpetrator of the crimes, will remain. It will remain a scar, a (________) on the
conscience of this tribunal.
05:01 And I say so for good reason, because one of the reasons why the, the, the – it has been
ruled that this is a genocide is because of the fact that the Tutsis were targeted. Now
when you have a tribunal that targets the Hutu, it becomes a sort of judicial genocide,
sort of judicial genocide.
05:24 And the, the tribunal and United Nations, did they do, do, do justice? No, they didn’t do
justice, as long as that perception remains very, very strong, especially on the majority
of Rwandans. Not just the majority of Rwandans but majority of people of the ethnic,
the same ethnic composition of the Tutsi-, the Hutus in Congo, in Congo Brazzaville, in
Central Africa, in Cameroon.
05:49 And the, the Tutsi that constitute the Himas in Uganda or other places, the wider, the
wider ethnic configuration as long as it remains, it remains a major problem for the – so
I believe that if another tribunal were to be set up, yes there should be independence
of the, the Prosecutor’s office, but it should be well-defined to say that we will hold you
accountable at some point in time, in order for you to justify that you carry out your
mandate consistent with United Nations resolution, with the statute.
06:24 With the judges, there is very little you can do because these come from member state
of the UN. And if I can say this from the African continent and some of the smaller
states where at the moment (__) war is going on, I doubt whether the government of
these countries will submit to the Security Council the name of a judge who is truly
independent. It must be someone who has rendered service or rendered service to the
regime in power in the respective countries.
Charles Taku
© 2009-2015 University of Washington | Downloaded from tribunalvoices.org
This work is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License
8
07:00 You can count, look, look at the countries and the background of the judges. I, I, I say
with due respect; some of them are very, very good. Some are very fair minded. Some
of them have transcended the limit of being subservient to their respective countries.
07:16 But so many of them are still very, very – especially some on the African continent and
some of the oth-, some from the Asian countries, some from the, the islands, some of
them you find out their background, just read their CV and find out their background.
07:38 You’ll find that it is very, very difficult. They come with that concept in mind and the,
the potential for influence, political influence, is still very, very great. If you look at the
first judgments that we had from here and the, the, the judgments we are having lately,
you find that they have overturned themselves several times because some of the, the
notions were just (________).
08:05 The notion of joint criminal enterprise, developed right from the Tadić case, have been
so much abused to sign a conviction by association. There has been so much abuse and
if this tribunal should close down and perhaps the tribunal for Yugoslavia, without them
putting that notion into context, and if it were to be a jurisprudence not only at the
international tribunal level but also in national jurisdiction, imagine what dictatorships
can make of that.
08:44 So some of these later notions that were conceived in order to address particular
situations now have a potential to be a weapon in the hands of dictators to perpetrate
further genocide, judicial genocide in the community, in the country in which they
preside or as tools of oppression in order to remain in power.
09:10 BF: So back to . . .
09:10 So, so, so my suggestion is that there should be a potential apart from this, that apart
from just having a review of the cases, the UN should put in place a structure that can
review some of these decisions, and really have a, a good debate about that, so that
the tribunal (______) some of the judges will know whether they succeeded – one, in
meeting their mandate and two, if the legal pre-, pre-, the legal precedent that they
laid out for the international community are going to do good or bad for international
justice.
Part 4
00:00 BF: So I want to make sure I, I understand what you’re saying. The, with respect to
the Prosecutor, the Prosecutor’s choices about where, who to prosecute – so, you’re
saying that the issue here is not so much that the people who are prosecuted should
not have been prosecuted . . .
00:21 Exactly.
00:22 BF: . . . but that they’re an incomplete set. Right.
00:25 Exactly. Yeah.
Charles Taku
© 2009-2015 University of Washington | Downloaded from tribunalvoices.org
This work is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License
9
00:26 BF: And when you say that they’re an incomplete set, one thing you could say is,
“Well, it is the Tutsis, the RPF, that also need to be prosecuted.” But maybe I also
heard you say that beyond that, there are people beyond those say in Uganda or
elsewhere, that you’ve felt should also be prosecuted here as part of this tribunal?
00:53 I really hesitate to say, to put the, the, the parties in this compartment – Hutus, Tutsi.
01:03 BF: Mm-hmm.
01:04 Because we, w-, a notion has emerged where you have a group of people called Hu-,
‘Hutsi,’ because of etymologies (___) they’re now called ‘Hutsi,’ Hutu Tutsi. And the,
the, (______) they’re people that speak the same language, they live in the same hills,
they know themselves for so long. The RPF was not Tutsi, just as the government of
Rwanda was not Hutu. They, they were mixed.
01:29 So we find now, now. You see the, the, the pattern in which people are fleeing the
country even now, you find so many Tutsi who were in the RPF fleeing the country
today. You find even the king, who is now in the U.S., the, the, the, who was Tutsi. He’s
in the U.S. He can’t come back to the country, because Kagame is saying, “You come
back as an ordinary citizen.” Yet this was the symbol of power before the revolution
1958.
01:58 And it’s more acceptable even to the Hutus now than even the Tutsi. So I hesitate to
put it that way. I just say that ‘the perpetrators of the crimes that were committed by
the RPF.’ And the RPF, you find that they were soldiers of the National (_______),
Registered Army of Uganda, that, that, that front part of RPF.
02:21 You find also that what, when (________) was investigated, the assassination of the
three Tutsi presidents; two of Burundi, and one of Rwanda. If the Prosecutor – because
it falls within the mandate of the Prosecutor to investigate and go after the
perpetrators. If that were to be done, if they were to prosecute some RPF . . .
02:47 Take note, before April 1994, the soldiers of the Rwandan army then did not control
the entire territory. Large portion of the territory was under the control of the RPF. Yet
thousands were massacred there. Somebody ought to be held accountable for that.
03:07 The United Nations tried to organize an election there, and all the Hutus who won
elections – the RPF lost – all of them were killed. And in the course of this trial you had
many RPF officers coming to testify in closed session for their own protection. “Yes, we
were asked to killed these number of people.”
03:31 Or, in Burumba, Kagame 250,000 people in the stadium, Kagame asked to kill all of
them. Or immediately after the, the, the shooting down of the plane, Kagame left
Mulindi the north, and came to Mosha, near Kigali. Kigali (_____). And he sent a
company of 160 soldiers that cleared this corridor. “Any person you find, clear the
corridor,” for him to be able to come close to the capital, to (_________).
Charles Taku
© 2009-2015 University of Washington | Downloaded from tribunalvoices.org
This work is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License
10
04:04 Now this is evidence which the Prosecutor was hiding for so long. You must have heard
about the decision we had on the 23rd of September, 2008. Exculpatory evidence that
the Prosecutor was hiding.
04:20 Trial Chamber II ordered that this exculpatory evidence should be disclosed to the
defense forthwith, and held the Prosecutor in contempt by saying that, “You are the
minister of justice, you should be seen as doing justice, not only in this trial but to
international community.” And that he should be (______) personally.
04:39 Now he has disclosed some of the material. What does the material contain? Crimes of
the RPF. Why has he not prosecuted them?
04:47 BF: Mm-hmm. And then (________) . . .
04:49 Crimes ascribed to the accused in this case; you committed these murders. This
disclosed material now shows that that witnesses from whom we took statements in
2002 are saying that he got statement from them, statement about the perpetrators of
the crime by the RPF.
05:06 The assassination of Habar-, Habyarimana. The evidence matched. The witnesses come
in closed session, “we were the ones who were on the spot. We were the ones who
took part in the assassination.” He kept the information. Why has he not prosecuted
them?
05:24 The only answer is this: that he’s submitting himself to political influence. There can be
no other, no other explanation for this. At least officially, the tribunal is going to end,
perhaps this year, perhaps next year.
05:42 The official statement from the, heard from the Prosecutor every day is that, “We are
investigating the RPF. Do not mind, we (__), the indictments will come.” That is the
official statement. If he said that, “I’ve found no evidence at all,” one would
understand. But that’s not the case here.
05:56 So we’re not saying that the Tutsi or Hutu – no. We’re saying that the perpetrators –
crimes have no ethnicity. Criminal is a criminal. There’s a presumption of innocence
though, for everyone until they’re found guilty. But if there’s any (___) of, leads to the
fact that crimes have been committed, or may have been committed, (__), we want at
least the prosecution to be able to say no.
06:22 BF: And from your . . .
06:22 The Prosecutor should be accountable to someone. If he didn’t do this.
06:25 BF: Mm-hmm. And . . .
06:26 It cannot be, it cannot be independence of the Prosecutor’s office. Cannot, cannot
(_____) impunity on the part of the Prosecutor.
Part 5
Charles Taku
© 2009-2015 University of Washington | Downloaded from tribunalvoices.org
This work is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License
11
00:00 BF: And so, from your point of view, from the things you’ve seen and heard, then you
would say, “Well, clearly the RPF, the pro-, there, there should be some prosecutions
there.” And are you also of the view that beyond the RPF there are other parties that
should be prosecuted or possibly investigated for possible prosecution?
00:21 I wouldn’t put the blame on the Prosecutor here . . .
00:24 BF: Yes.
00:24 . . . with the (___), countries like Uganda that provided army and arms, and things like
that because the Security Council and presumably some of the superpowers, the
United States and perhaps a country which is not a superpower but a very, very
important country in Europe and the world, Belgium.
00:48 By virtue of being the heart; the depository of the secret of the western world, NATO,
European Union, (_______). They're a very small country, but so important, more
important than even some of the superpowers for that matter. They play a major role
in this; the evidence leads to them at every turn.
01:09 Their own ambassador testified here in open session and said, “We are more interested
in getting out our people and that was the right thing to do because we didn’t care
about the (_____).” That’s what he said at the opening session. Those were his
transcripts (_______) reading a few days ago.
01:24 My problem is this, they were the ones United States sitting there in the Security
Council. They drafted the statute that was brought to us. And we filed a report saying,
“Look, this was an internal arms conflict.” Now if this an internal arms conflict,
automatically no matter what amount of evidence you leaked in regard to this case,
with regard to the international character of the conflict, it’s not going to be
considered.
01:54 In other words they make it impossibly for anybody to enquire into their own role. In
Semanza I applied to get one – Professor Max Hilaire of Morgan State University as an
expert witness on the role of the international community in the Rwandan con-,
conflict. He prepared a report and the court at the end of the day said, “No, we will not
allow the evidence.” They said, “We’ll not allow the evidence.” Why? No reason was
given.
02:28 And the only reason can be found in the Secretary General report to the Security
Council at the time. So when the constituting elements and the travaux préparatoires
themselves have limited the scope of the evidence and the, the inquiries, state of the
inquiry you can’t put that blame on the Prosecutor.
02:50 It is the Security Council and when the Security Council we know means some of the
superpowers. I will never know for sure why, for example, the United States would take
that position. But what I can guess now is because Carla Del Ponte, was a former
Prosecutor, has said that a lot of influence was put on her not to conduct investigation
against RPF, not to indict them even though she has enough evidence.
Charles Taku
© 2009-2015 University of Washington | Downloaded from tribunalvoices.org
This work is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License
12
03:14 Her spokesperson has written a book saying the same thing and whom do I believe? I
believe Carla Del Ponte if she says that that influence is there. And if – and that she
even says the reason why they removed her as a prosecutor of this court was because
she insisted on going ahead with the prosecution.
03:33 If her predecessor takes over, and doesn’t prosecute, it will mean that he was a more
convenient person through which they could hide this. But the question is, in this
particular context, can they actually hide? No.
Part 6
00:00 BF: So one last question before I will turn to my colleague. Is your perception that of
your colleagues very broadly here at the tribunal – so not just the defense but among
the prosecutors, perhaps judges, Registrar’s office – do you think the vast majority of
your colleagues in some way share your view that, th-, that a broader prosecution
would have been better for the tribunal?
00:27 Well, in answer to that question let me just give you one promise. When the tribunal
closes down, in order to prove that they share my view, wait and see what many of the
prosecutors are going to write. I’m perfectly aware about the position of most of the
prosecutors who are very good lawyers; ordinary prosecutors, very good lawyers.
00:47 And some of them who have said, “Look, when we started these trials, we didn’t know
that this where the evidence leading to.” And some of them have said, “No, this
inadmissible.” And, and I, and I promise you this, that most of them are very, very fine
lawyers, good lawyers and they said, “Look, we cannot be seen as being complicit in
this.”
01:05 And probably even before the end of the trial, most of them must have left because of
this. Also try to talk to some of the investigators because you find many are in America,
some in Canada and among the, the, the prosecutors, talk to some of the African
prosecutors and others, and also some from Europe.
01:25 And now they are covered by the six months. The UN, after six months when you are
still (____) you cannot talk. But let me tell you. They share these views. I think we
talked to the Prosecutor and put the question to him, “Why have you not prosecuted
RPF?” I don't know how he is going to respond, but maybe he’ll tell you, “We are still
investigating,” because he cannot reverse himself on that.
01:49 And I think that most of us are very, very frustrated. I, coming from the continent, from
Africa, I being a traditional ruler in my community, I know very, very well that this
impunity will just exacerbate the conflict. Not necessarily only in Rwanda but in the
sub-region. There’s absolutely no doubt about that.
02:11 The indicators, the elements that led to the conflict is this, if anything that’s been
exacerbated by the fact that the end structure put in place to redress these crimes has
failed woefully in its mandate. Now, ask, I asked, I put this question to the former
President of the court Judge Møse. I said, “Look, Judge, how do you think, rightly or
Charles Taku
© 2009-2015 University of Washington | Downloaded from tribunalvoices.org
This work is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License
13
wrongly, the people who are indicted, there are some people, probably so many people
out there looking, thinking that they are their leaders.
02:46 They now symbolize the identity of an-, any group to the extent that the prosecution is
ethnic-, is, is influenced by ethnicity, or perceived to be so. What do you think Judge if
this tribunal should close down one day, would I say to a Tutsi? Why don’t you think
that these people would just say, 'This world, this Rwanda, this new Rwanda that the
tribunal has left behind. It’s not worth living. Let us take up arms and do justice to
ourselves.' Don’t you think so?”
03:27 I said, because my perception, my question is informed by the fact that the Gacaca
proceedings in Rwanda target the Hutu. The tribunal ICTR target the Hutu. The
Rwandan legal system targeted the Hutu; the (_______) across the world targeted the
Hutu.
03:46 So where can the Hutu victims find justice? Absolutely nowhere. Well, only France and
Spain have tried because of their citizens who were killed, to make a reasonable and
principled attempt in order to indict these individuals, issue warrants. Now, the
tribunal, what is your position about this? Originally your spokesman joined Rwanda in
condemning the French and the Spanish.
04:21 It's only when a trial chamber in the case of Munyakazi when the Prosecutor tried to
transfer some of the cases to Rwanda, and the trial chamber said, “Look, there can be
no justice in Rwanda.” And among other reasons it said, when the French judges
indicted some RPF soldiers, when Spain indicted them, they insulted and threatened
those judges. If they did that to foreign judges, what about the Rwandan ju-, judges if
they intended doing justice? Even worse.
04:58 And I was the person – I addressed the court about that in our own trial and said,
“Look, to hand over any of these people to Rwanda, by the procedure of this court, we
only harden the perception that indeed it exists the policy of this court to hand over
these people to the victor to immediately sentence them to life imprisonment in
isolation.” Every time there is a conviction here the government of Rwanda intervenes.
But when there’s an acquittal, they condemn.
05:37 Say, “That person ought to be convicted.” They have never shown, neither the
Rwandan justice nor the government of Rwanda has shown that they are ready,
Kagame is ready, to behave and act as a president for all Rwandans. He’s behaved as
the president for some of the Rwandans, not all Rwandans by his conduct towards this
tribunal and towards the Hutu majority and towards the accused in this trial.
06:02 And I pointed this out to the judge, and I pointed this to the court. So, my point of view
is that probably at this point in time, if you ask the Prosecutor, ask the judge, (____), “If
we are to close down today, what would be the hallmark, what would be the legacy?”
06:22 They will name a series of cases, “We tried this (___), we tried this.” Yes, but what are
the principles of law that we’ve laid down in the trial of this case? Yes, some of the
Charles Taku
© 2009-2015 University of Washington | Downloaded from tribunalvoices.org
This work is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License
14
principles are balanced, some are consistent with the attainment of international legal
principles but some have done a lot of harm.
06:44 And I say joint criminal enterprise has a potential that if anybody should put your name,
say, “Well, you were never there, you were in America,” joint criminal enterprise it is a
web that can sweep just any person depending on the whims and caprice of the judge,
that particular judge where he stands. No, that is not a legacy. That is not even the
principle that can help the world. It would do more harm.
Part 7
00:00 Ronald Slye: You mentioned a number of criticisms of the tribunal. On balance, do
you think that it was a positive or a negative institution with respect to justice and
reconciliation?
00:17 Let me say the mere fact that the institution was created and existed and has operated
on the continent is very, very positive, because for once in our own century, our own
times, dictators on the continent now know that they can be (____), held accountable
for crimes perpet-, perpetrated by them.
00:45 More important, people to whom, people have, who have been elected or people who
have held up themselves as commanders, army officers, others whose major role was
to protect the people, to rule the different countries, now know that if they turn
around and kill their own people or they fail to protect their own people when they had
the capacity to do so, they will be held accountable.
01:21 On that, I can say that it’s positive. And I can say that the mere existence of the tribunal
per se outweighs any other criticism as far as the African continent is concerned. As far
as international justice is concerned, it came too late in the day because there was a
possibility of pre-empting the crisis. So was the Security Council with this (__________)
did this just in order to hide its face and therefore – but better late than never and
today it stands as positive.
02:05 On the development of international law, yes the jurisprudence on rape as a war crime
is a major development. I think it is one of the greatest legacies that this tribunal will
leave, because personally, women and v-, people, vulnerable groups ought to be
protected from warfare. And for them to use women and the vulnerable groups as
instruments of war, it is wrong.
02:35 Whether as the facts evolve the law applies to particular factors is another issue but
the mere principle itself is good. With the, the, the precedents that were laid out in
Nuremberg and Tokyo, this tribunal has followed those precedent to the extent that
the, the, the "victor’s justice" concept has been followed to the letter.
03:02 And that’s a bad precedent that happened so many years ago from 1945, ‘46, ‘47, so
many years ago. And it has set, it set a bad precedent for the world and this tribunal
has just walked along those lines and it’s unfortunate.
Charles Taku
© 2009-2015 University of Washington | Downloaded from tribunalvoices.org
This work is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License
15
03:18 Now, may, do, do we have another tribunal or wait for another tribunal to come and
put an end to, to, to this, to, to this conduct, to these principles? I do not know. But
again, just as we were saying, in Nuremberg the world was saying, "never again," you
now know why. That, that "never again" was an empty slogan to the extent that we
have victor's justice and to the extent that it has been repeated in this particular court,
it remains an empty slogan.
03:53 And in anything, it leaves us with a perception that whenever victor’s justice is applied,
it enhances impunity for the, the party that feels aggrieved. That they can always take
up arms and repeat the same crimes. To that extent, I think this court, this tribunal has
failed woefully on that.
04:16 And as you say, in order for them and I see this development – unfortunately
development that was developed in the Tadić case, I see that unfortunate development
of joint criminal enterprise as was just another means by the court in order to enhance
the victor’s justice principle was extended further.
04:36 If you can’t get them in any form of accomplice liability, then why not extend this
notion of joint criminal enterprise? Know that it is a web that once you throw it wide
open, the person will be caught somehow – jailed by association.
04:55 So, so, I mean look at Article 6(1) of the statute on individual criminal responsibility.
Because there is no joint criminal enterprise in the statute, how do you fit it, how do
you fit joint criminal enterprise under 6(1)?
05:14 When 6(1) enumerates the conduct, that the enumerated conduct is there. How do you
fit it? Of course they say they fall back on customary international law. But if it
(___________) customary international law and they move back to Nuremberg again
and to the Tokyo trials, where the principle was first admitted but not as in the concept
in which you find it.
05:39 And the manner in which it was discussed in Tadić you find out that even there, it is
victor’s justice looking for a means of criminalising and convicting the particular
individual when it pleases them to do so.
05:58 So on that score, the tribunal has failed because it has set a bad precedent for the rest
of the world or it has developed further a bad precedent that has its origin from
Nuremberg then Tadić, and continues.
06:13 RS: Those who defend joint criminal enterprise, sort of raise the problem of dealing
with atrocities that a lot of people are involved in, and that, that you only have
genocides or crimes against humanity if there’s a very large organizational structure
with both very high level people and mid-level people and low level people involved.
06:40 RS: Do you think that, leaving aside the legal issue you raised about the origins or
the, the legitimacy of joint criminal enterprise in the ICTR statute, do you think as a
general principle it is a good principle or a bad prin-, principle in terms of individual
liability?
Charles Taku
© 2009-2015 University of Washington | Downloaded from tribunalvoices.org
This work is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License
16
07:00 If it were, if it were applied very restrictively it could be good. Because you know,
especially criminal genocide, the specific intent, specific intent has, it has a higher
threshold. So if we were to, to, to apply it as, in that concept, how do you – especially
with the system, the systemic form of joint criminal enterprise – how, how, how do,
how do you, how do you, how do you get the (_________) on specific intent?
07:34 So, you know, it is has been abused, it has been abused. In fact, I think it might have
been conceived in order to, to, to, in order to remedy a mischief, the way you put it,
but the fact that it has been abused in rare cases.
07:52 And in that, in that, in that particular situation, you find that the judges are so divided,
some of the judges (_____) say that, “We can never apply it,” in the same, in the same
court. Different appeal chambers have come to different conclusions.
08:08 (_______) appeals chamber (_______) followed by the idea (________) – and the
danger for us is this: In this concept, if these courts must be modelled and these
concepts, these principles were applied to a national jurisdiction, in the African context
in the hands of the dictators in power, believe me, you would do substantial injustice. It
would lead to war. It would target just about any person who is perceived to have
taken part in an alleged joint criminal enterprise in any of the three forms. And that is
our worry.
08:48 And that’s why in, in Sierra Leone I pointed out that the judges of the Special Court
should take note that joint criminal enterprise is not part of the statute of the Special
Court for Sierra Leone. They cannot create another form of criminal liability, which is
neither in the statute nor flows from the statute. They were out of their mandate.
09:13 I, I’m waiting for, for what, whatever decision they’ll say about that but I’ll raise it. In
other words, what you’re saying is correct. It was, it was perceived to redress a
perceptible mischief but the fact is that from Tadić it has been abused. It was poorly
applied in Tadić and in many other cases that here these couple of people were
acquitted of all other forms of liability except the joint criminal enterprise. How can
that be?
09:42 RS: Well, in Tadić there were three different categories, right, of joint criminal
enterprise, and the third is the most controversial.
09:47 Yes.
09:48 RS: Let me ask you if you were advising somebody setting up a new tribunal, now, so
you could write the statute, would you include any form of joint criminal enterprise in
that statute whether the first, the second or the third?
10:03 Well, ordinarily there, there’s a problem here. You see like in the case of Mpambara
here, the judges in that case expressed the fear that there’s some form of confusion
between joint criminal enterprise, especially the first and second forms, with other
forms of accomplice liability, in aiding and abetting.
Charles Taku
© 2009-2015 University of Washington | Downloaded from tribunalvoices.org
This work is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License
17
10:26 And as long as we have on the statute books all forms of aiding and abetting and of
course, and that’s why they derived the notion of criminal enterprise – aiding and
abetting. There’s a lot of confusion there, the law is not certain there and the courts are
not certain there.
10:43 At this time, at this point in time no, at this point in time for me, no. But if they could
really reconcile themselves, maybe and say okay the first form of cr-, of joint criminal
enterprise, maybe even the second, we can incorporate into the laws, there will be no
problem. But the third form is the most controversial, I mean the most controversial of
all.
Part 8
00:00 RS: Let me, let me shift gears. You, you mentioned that you’ve also worked at the
Sierra Leone tribunal.
00:05 Exactly yes.
00:06 RS: You also mentioned that you’re a traditional ruler . . .
00:08 Yes, yes.
00:09 RS: . . . and so we have sort of three different types of models that you may be
familiar with – the international model, the ICTR; the hybrid model, the Sierra Leone
tribunal; and then we have the Gacaca courts, a sort of more traditional form of
justice. Do you think that – which, which one of those is better suited to dealing with
these sorts of atrocities?
00:36 Let me say one thing, the, the model that we have in ICTY (__________) have been the
best because of the fact that you don’t have the, the country in which the crimes took
place interfering unnecessarily either with the court or witnesses.
00:53 But Sierra Leone has emerged as a more successful model. And surprisingly I would say
so because in terms of – I, I mean actual performance, in the sense that the, the
prosecutions are taking place in Sierra Leone and the government has not inter-,
interfered that much. Why? Because all the parties to the conflict were prosecuted.
01:24 You had the Kamajors, CDF Kamajors, you have AFRC and you have RUF and of course
lately Charles Taylor. So, probably this is what I’m (____) about the stability of the
proceedings, that the citizens of Sier-, Sierra Leone see the same fairness in that all the
parties are prosecuted.
01:45 Maybe if they were to prosecute only the AFRC or RUF or the Kamajors, maybe the
potential for instability after that would have been there. But I have been there and I
find that the government cooperates when they subpoena the, the former president
came, the Sierra Leone government.
02:08 Even though they had – the, the, the Special Court is very, very unpopular among the
Sierra Leone people. Because they had a Truth and Reconciliation Commission and even
Charles Taku
© 2009-2015 University of Washington | Downloaded from tribunalvoices.org
This work is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License
18
though shortly before the elections the, the former vice presidential candidate opened
the doors of the prison and, and set free all the, all the suspects who were there
because they played a major role in the elections and were somehow popular.
Especially the rebels played a major role.
02:35 That will not be a model that anybody want in any other country because all other
African countries are not Sierra Leone and secondly, yes, if this model had all the
parties in the conflict, Yugoslavia has been somehow successful also because all the
parties to conflict have been prosecuted.
02:55 In terms of stability, in terms of the ability of the international community to foresee,
to foresee ten years, 20 years from now, is there potential for conflict? They can see.
Can you see the same about Rwanda? No, so this model remains the best, but for the
fact that all the parties in the conflict (______) and that, that is the difference. So I think
the Yugoslavia model remains the best.
03:23 RS: And why do you think the Yugoslavia model and the Sierra Leone model were
better in that regard than the Rwanda tribunal?
03:30 In the first place, if you find time and, and read some of the proceedings in the, in the
Sierra Leonean, the judges are actually, they actually try to be fair. They give all the
possibilities for the parties to be heard. They conduct joint trials but they make it
known from inception that each accused is being tried as if he were being tried
separately.
03:57 And they will not let a co-accused incriminate another accused in the course of the trial,
because that would lead to a mistrial. Because if they were tried separately that would
never happen. If you sit in this court you will find that the so-called completion strategy
is a factor that has been taken into consideration by this court. And the court has put a
lot of tension, especially on the defense, and the comple-, the completion strategy has
done a lot of injustice.
04:26 They’ll cut the number of witnesses, they cut the cross examination, they (______)
even to look for witnesses. I mean of, of course the international community, the
defense is not always very, very popular with them. They can provide all the resources
with the Prosecutor but with the defense they will not. So they try the completion
strategy here.
04:43 In Yugoslavia there are few cases, yet the international community have told them,
“No, you can close 2010.” But here they put a lot of pressure to stop. Stop. Now, come
to think about it a problem arises, when Yugoslavia, when the trial in Yugoslavia
started, when the trials in Yugoslavia started – when the conflict started, I’m sorry, the
international community jumped in and Bill Clinton . . .
05:19 . . . the bombing, you remember the bombing and you know very well that at the IC-, at
the ICJ, they attempted bringing action against all the states involved but the statute of
Charles Taku
© 2009-2015 University of Washington | Downloaded from tribunalvoices.org
This work is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License
19
the ICJ, ICJ did not permit them, that they can bring them collectively, NATO countries –
so they had to bring cases against all of them, even though again they didn’t succeed.
05:42 But, the, at – under the same circumstances in Rwanda they look away and pull out
their troops. The same situation now is repeating itself as we move towards the end of
the tribunal. Much as they are trying to say, “No, stop Rwanda, end quickly, do
everything to end quickly.”
06:00 They are asking Yugoslavia tribunal, “Take your time. See that you can, justice is done”
(_______). But you ask yourself what informs this conduct on the part of the
international community? In this type of situation I don’t have the answer, they have
the answer.
06:19 But it’s unfortunate because that perception is there, that you were, you weren't there,
you left the Rwandan, you abandoned them when they most needed you. Now you are
trying to abandon them again to rush the defense of these people or rush other cases,
close the case quickly. The Yugoslavia that has few work cases, you give them more
money, you give them more time.
06:50 What? I cannot really give you an answer to that because I would be speculating if I
were to give any answer to that. But the circumstances are there, the circumstances
are there for one to see. At the end of the day, Rwanda, the quality of justice that is
here will be rushed.
07:12 They will cut one witnesses to about 50, some who had 100 and something when they
cut them to about 50. The Prosecutor has been prosecuting for the past six years,
cutting witnesses. Now in under a year you want the defense to end in some of the
cases.
07:29 And the ambassador at large, UN Ambassador at large at that time was Pierre Prosper;
he came. He held a meeting. I was present in the meeting. Pierre Prosper was telling us,
“Oh I came here, nothing else, the end game. Let me know. So what are you people
doing in order to close the cases?” Of course it is only now of late that Carla Del Ponte’s
spokesperson in his book clearly says that (__) went to the State Department, met
Pierre Prosper, with Carla Del Ponte and he said, “Don’t touch these files, the RPF files.”
08:04 I’m not the one saying it, it’s in the book. So at the time he came here and spoke to us
and I was in a meeting, for me it was, it was, I thought that was, was in good faith. I’m
not saying that what Carla Del Ponte’s spokesperson has written is right, but I’m saying
that at least this is the Prosecutor saying this. This has come from the Prosecutor.
Part 9
00:00 RS: Should we – do you need to?
00:01 No, no, no, proceed.
00:03 RS: You’re okay?
Charles Taku
© 2009-2015 University of Washington | Downloaded from tribunalvoices.org
This work is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License
20
00:03 Yeah. I, when we finish I will stop them, I will let them wait in here.
00:08 RS: Okay. One of the audiences of this sort of interview, which was mentioned
before, may be school children in India, China, Rwanda. One of the questions they
might have for someone like you is that you are defending people who have been
accused of some of the worst atrocities that we have known. How do you explain
that? How do you justify that to them?
00:34 I would tell them that it is in the interest of, it’s in their interest and the interest of the
international community to know the truth of what happened. And, if the persons ar
Categories: Conference Papers
Post a Comment
Oops!
The words you entered did not match the given text. Please try again.
47 Comments

https://wakelet.com/wake/vCaBYKSB9dIBDRuZfvfCq
https://wakelet.com/wake/ayAmIRVlQOgtk01PsfDkW
https://wakelet.com/wake/N42Wno64wAXjuy7TLhhGu
https://wakelet.com/wake/Y-ZE5w-Z-N6gQhxOtPMbH
https://wakelet.com/wake/qO87xW5_J4-JyELfkCpYQ
https://wakelet.com/wake/XTJTNSpsLGi_9J4hSvs7q
https://wakelet.com/wake/N4hLXeEriPj2G9qvZ_IRt
https://wakelet.com/wake/-Jhz4XLfKtjLIMFX61t4g
https://wakelet.com/wake/EGWErG5ZvT31H4GjP0l5M

https://wakelet.com/wake/vCaBYKSB9dIBDRuZfvfCq
https://wakelet.com/wake/ayAmIRVlQOgtk01PsfDkW
https://wakelet.com/wake/N42Wno64wAXjuy7TLhhGu
https://wakelet.com/wake/Y-ZE5w-Z-N6gQhxOtPMbH
https://wakelet.com/wake/qO87xW5_J4-JyELfkCpYQ
https://wakelet.com/wake/XTJTNSpsLGi_9J4hSvs7q
https://wakelet.com/wake/N4hLXeEriPj2G9qvZ_IRt
https://wakelet.com/wake/-Jhz4XLfKtjLIMFX61t4g
https://wakelet.com/wake/EGWErG5ZvT31H4GjP0l5M

https://wakelet.com/wake/vCaBYKSB9dIBDRuZfvfCq
https://wakelet.com/wake/ayAmIRVlQOgtk01PsfDkW
https://wakelet.com/wake/N42Wno64wAXjuy7TLhhGu
https://wakelet.com/wake/Y-ZE5w-Z-N6gQhxOtPMbH
https://wakelet.com/wake/qO87xW5_J4-JyELfkCpYQ
https://wakelet.com/wake/XTJTNSpsLGi_9J4hSvs7q
https://wakelet.com/wake/N4hLXeEriPj2G9qvZ_IRt
https://wakelet.com/wake/-Jhz4XLfKtjLIMFX61t4g
https://wakelet.com/wake/EGWErG5ZvT31H4GjP0l5M

https://wakelet.com/wake/vCaBYKSB9dIBDRuZfvfCq
https://wakelet.com/wake/ayAmIRVlQOgtk01PsfDkW
https://wakelet.com/wake/N42Wno64wAXjuy7TLhhGu
https://wakelet.com/wake/Y-ZE5w-Z-N6gQhxOtPMbH
https://wakelet.com/wake/qO87xW5_J4-JyELfkCpYQ
https://wakelet.com/wake/XTJTNSpsLGi_9J4hSvs7q
https://wakelet.com/wake/N4hLXeEriPj2G9qvZ_IRt
https://wakelet.com/wake/-Jhz4XLfKtjLIMFX61t4g
https://wakelet.com/wake/EGWErG5ZvT31H4GjP0l5M

-download-zip-work
https://coub.com/stories/3053613-cracked-revit-lt-2005-x64-torren
t
https://coub.com/stories/3053609-better-download-wwe-raw-vs-smack
down-2013
https://coub.com/stories/3053610-think-cell-license-key-crack-lin
k
https://coub.com/stories/3053608-descargar-youwave-portable-emula
dor-de-android-para-pc-epub-free
https://coub.com/stories/3053605-pearl-jam-20-1080p-mkv-ac3-robpr
3datortorrenttorrent-top
https://coub.com/stories/3053604-bentley-microstation-v8i-xm-v8-1
1-05-17-full-cracked-16-work
https://coub.com/stories/3053603-trackpadcontrolmoduleserialnumbe
r
https://coub.com/stories/3053599-astm-d7066-04-pdf-download-new
https://coub.com/stories/3049221-dungeon-defenders-hot-free-downl
oad-full-version-mac

-download-zip-work
https://coub.com/stories/3053613-cracked-revit-lt-2005-x64-torren
t
https://coub.com/stories/3053609-better-download-wwe-raw-vs-smack
down-2013
https://coub.com/stories/3053610-think-cell-license-key-crack-lin
k
https://coub.com/stories/3053608-descargar-youwave-portable-emula
dor-de-android-para-pc-epub-free
https://coub.com/stories/3053605-pearl-jam-20-1080p-mkv-ac3-robpr
3datortorrenttorrent-top
https://coub.com/stories/3053604-bentley-microstation-v8i-xm-v8-1
1-05-17-full-cracked-16-work
https://coub.com/stories/3053603-trackpadcontrolmoduleserialnumbe
r
https://coub.com/stories/3053599-astm-d7066-04-pdf-download-new
https://coub.com/stories/3049221-dungeon-defenders-hot-free-downl
oad-full-version-mac

-download-zip-work
https://coub.com/stories/3053613-cracked-revit-lt-2005-x64-torren
t
https://coub.com/stories/3053609-better-download-wwe-raw-vs-smack
down-2013
https://coub.com/stories/3053610-think-cell-license-key-crack-lin
k
https://coub.com/stories/3053608-descargar-youwave-portable-emula
dor-de-android-para-pc-epub-free
https://coub.com/stories/3053605-pearl-jam-20-1080p-mkv-ac3-robpr
3datortorrenttorrent-top
https://coub.com/stories/3053604-bentley-microstation-v8i-xm-v8-1
1-05-17-full-cracked-16-work
https://coub.com/stories/3053603-trackpadcontrolmoduleserialnumbe
r
https://coub.com/stories/3053599-astm-d7066-04-pdf-download-new
https://coub.com/stories/3049221-dungeon-defenders-hot-free-downl
oad-full-version-mac

-download-zip-work
https://coub.com/stories/3053613-cracked-revit-lt-2005-x64-torren
t
https://coub.com/stories/3053609-better-download-wwe-raw-vs-smack
down-2013
https://coub.com/stories/3053610-think-cell-license-key-crack-lin
k
https://coub.com/stories/3053608-descargar-youwave-portable-emula
dor-de-android-para-pc-epub-free
https://coub.com/stories/3053605-pearl-jam-20-1080p-mkv-ac3-robpr
3datortorrenttorrent-top
https://coub.com/stories/3053604-bentley-microstation-v8i-xm-v8-1
1-05-17-full-cracked-16-work
https://coub.com/stories/3053603-trackpadcontrolmoduleserialnumbe
r
https://coub.com/stories/3053599-astm-d7066-04-pdf-download-new
https://coub.com/stories/3049221-dungeon-defenders-hot-free-downl
oad-full-version-mac

-download-zip-work
https://coub.com/stories/3053613-cracked-revit-lt-2005-x64-torren
t
https://coub.com/stories/3053609-better-download-wwe-raw-vs-smack
down-2013
https://coub.com/stories/3053610-think-cell-license-key-crack-lin
k
https://coub.com/stories/3053608-descargar-youwave-portable-emula
dor-de-android-para-pc-epub-free
https://coub.com/stories/3053605-pearl-jam-20-1080p-mkv-ac3-robpr
3datortorrenttorrent-top
https://coub.com/stories/3053604-bentley-microstation-v8i-xm-v8-1
1-05-17-full-cracked-16-work
https://coub.com/stories/3053603-trackpadcontrolmoduleserialnumbe
r
https://coub.com/stories/3053599-astm-d7066-04-pdf-download-new
https://coub.com/stories/3049221-dungeon-defenders-hot-free-downl
oad-full-version-mac

https://coub.com/stories/2933793-_best_-rapa-nui-filme-download-d
ublado-torrent
https://coub.com/stories/2933792-greasemonkey-script-download-net
flix-free
https://coub.com/stories/2933791-install-fsx-p3d-fsdg-marsa-alam-
hema-v1-1-cheats
https://coub.com/stories/2933790-baixar-filme-uma-carta-de-amor-d
ublado-430-hot
https://coub.com/stories/2933789-vintila-corbel-caderea-constanti
nopolului-pdf-download-celerain
https://coub.com/stories/2933788-axialis-iconworkshop-v6-80-profe
ssional-edition-serial-key-hamilenn
https://coub.com/stories/2933786-better-sex-and-the-city-tutti-i-
torrent-delle-6-stagioni-ita-s1-4-dvdrip-s5-6-tvrip
https://coub.com/stories/2933787-type-3-typeedit-2008-dongle-crac
k-18l-work
https://coub.com/stories/2933785-vbulletin-nulled-4-2-2-vb-forum-
full-cracked-free-download-link

https://coub.com/stories/2933793-_best_-rapa-nui-filme-download-d
ublado-torrent
https://coub.com/stories/2933792-greasemonkey-script-download-net
flix-free
https://coub.com/stories/2933791-install-fsx-p3d-fsdg-marsa-alam-
hema-v1-1-cheats
https://coub.com/stories/2933790-baixar-filme-uma-carta-de-amor-d
ublado-430-hot
https://coub.com/stories/2933789-vintila-corbel-caderea-constanti
nopolului-pdf-download-celerain
https://coub.com/stories/2933788-axialis-iconworkshop-v6-80-profe
ssional-edition-serial-key-hamilenn
https://coub.com/stories/2933786-better-sex-and-the-city-tutti-i-
torrent-delle-6-stagioni-ita-s1-4-dvdrip-s5-6-tvrip
https://coub.com/stories/2933787-type-3-typeedit-2008-dongle-crac
k-18l-work
https://coub.com/stories/2933785-vbulletin-nulled-4-2-2-vb-forum-
full-cracked-free-download-link

https://coub.com/stories/2933793-_best_-rapa-nui-filme-download-d
ublado-torrent
https://coub.com/stories/2933792-greasemonkey-script-download-net
flix-free
https://coub.com/stories/2933791-install-fsx-p3d-fsdg-marsa-alam-
hema-v1-1-cheats
https://coub.com/stories/2933790-baixar-filme-uma-carta-de-amor-d
ublado-430-hot
https://coub.com/stories/2933789-vintila-corbel-caderea-constanti
nopolului-pdf-download-celerain
https://coub.com/stories/2933788-axialis-iconworkshop-v6-80-profe
ssional-edition-serial-key-hamilenn
https://coub.com/stories/2933786-better-sex-and-the-city-tutti-i-
torrent-delle-6-stagioni-ita-s1-4-dvdrip-s5-6-tvrip
https://coub.com/stories/2933787-type-3-typeedit-2008-dongle-crac
k-18l-work
https://coub.com/stories/2933785-vbulletin-nulled-4-2-2-vb-forum-
full-cracked-free-download-link

https://coub.com/stories/2933793-_best_-rapa-nui-filme-download-d
ublado-torrent
https://coub.com/stories/2933792-greasemonkey-script-download-net
flix-free
https://coub.com/stories/2933791-install-fsx-p3d-fsdg-marsa-alam-
hema-v1-1-cheats
https://coub.com/stories/2933790-baixar-filme-uma-carta-de-amor-d
ublado-430-hot
https://coub.com/stories/2933789-vintila-corbel-caderea-constanti
nopolului-pdf-download-celerain
https://coub.com/stories/2933788-axialis-iconworkshop-v6-80-profe
ssional-edition-serial-key-hamilenn
https://coub.com/stories/2933786-better-sex-and-the-city-tutti-i-
torrent-delle-6-stagioni-ita-s1-4-dvdrip-s5-6-tvrip
https://coub.com/stories/2933787-type-3-typeedit-2008-dongle-crac
k-18l-work
https://coub.com/stories/2933785-vbulletin-nulled-4-2-2-vb-forum-
full-cracked-free-download-link

https://coub.com/stories/2933793-_best_-rapa-nui-filme-download-d
ublado-torrent
https://coub.com/stories/2933792-greasemonkey-script-download-net
flix-free
https://coub.com/stories/2933791-install-fsx-p3d-fsdg-marsa-alam-
hema-v1-1-cheats
https://coub.com/stories/2933790-baixar-filme-uma-carta-de-amor-d
ublado-430-hot
https://coub.com/stories/2933789-vintila-corbel-caderea-constanti
nopolului-pdf-download-celerain
https://coub.com/stories/2933788-axialis-iconworkshop-v6-80-profe
ssional-edition-serial-key-hamilenn
https://coub.com/stories/2933786-better-sex-and-the-city-tutti-i-
torrent-delle-6-stagioni-ita-s1-4-dvdrip-s5-6-tvrip
https://coub.com/stories/2933787-type-3-typeedit-2008-dongle-crac
k-18l-work
https://coub.com/stories/2933785-vbulletin-nulled-4-2-2-vb-forum-
full-cracked-free-download-link

-iso-download
https://coub.com/stories/3037812-better-nfs-the-run-crack-downloa
d-free
https://coub.com/stories/3037811-abviewer-9-1-keygen-upd-crack
https://coub.com/stories/3037810-itactil-lider-11-crack-_hot_
https://coub.com/stories/3037809-crack-repack-multimax-3-29
https://coub.com/stories/3037808-anti-deep-freeze-06rar-top
https://coub.com/stories/3037807-winfeed-2-8-full-cracked-new
https://coub.com/stories/3037806-winrar-activator-kafnan
https://coub.com/stories/3037805-datacash230descarga-de-emulador-
ipn-para-neodata-2014-39-tailbali
https://coub.com/stories/3037804-the-crew-2-digital-deluxe-editio
n-3dm-best-full-unlocked-repack-serial-key-keygen

-iso-download
https://coub.com/stories/3037812-better-nfs-the-run-crack-downloa
d-free
https://coub.com/stories/3037811-abviewer-9-1-keygen-upd-crack
https://coub.com/stories/3037810-itactil-lider-11-crack-_hot_
https://coub.com/stories/3037809-crack-repack-multimax-3-29
https://coub.com/stories/3037808-anti-deep-freeze-06rar-top
https://coub.com/stories/3037807-winfeed-2-8-full-cracked-new
https://coub.com/stories/3037806-winrar-activator-kafnan
https://coub.com/stories/3037805-datacash230descarga-de-emulador-
ipn-para-neodata-2014-39-tailbali
https://coub.com/stories/3037804-the-crew-2-digital-deluxe-editio
n-3dm-best-full-unlocked-repack-serial-key-keygen

-iso-download
https://coub.com/stories/3037812-better-nfs-the-run-crack-downloa
d-free
https://coub.com/stories/3037811-abviewer-9-1-keygen-upd-crack
https://coub.com/stories/3037810-itactil-lider-11-crack-_hot_
https://coub.com/stories/3037809-crack-repack-multimax-3-29
https://coub.com/stories/3037808-anti-deep-freeze-06rar-top
https://coub.com/stories/3037807-winfeed-2-8-full-cracked-new
https://coub.com/stories/3037806-winrar-activator-kafnan
https://coub.com/stories/3037805-datacash230descarga-de-emulador-
ipn-para-neodata-2014-39-tailbali
https://coub.com/stories/3037804-the-crew-2-digital-deluxe-editio
n-3dm-best-full-unlocked-repack-serial-key-keygen

-iso-download
https://coub.com/stories/3037812-better-nfs-the-run-crack-downloa
d-free
https://coub.com/stories/3037811-abviewer-9-1-keygen-upd-crack
https://coub.com/stories/3037810-itactil-lider-11-crack-_hot_
https://coub.com/stories/3037809-crack-repack-multimax-3-29
https://coub.com/stories/3037808-anti-deep-freeze-06rar-top
https://coub.com/stories/3037807-winfeed-2-8-full-cracked-new
https://coub.com/stories/3037806-winrar-activator-kafnan
https://coub.com/stories/3037805-datacash230descarga-de-emulador-
ipn-para-neodata-2014-39-tailbali
https://coub.com/stories/3037804-the-crew-2-digital-deluxe-editio
n-3dm-best-full-unlocked-repack-serial-key-keygen

-iso-download
https://coub.com/stories/3037812-better-nfs-the-run-crack-downloa
d-free
https://coub.com/stories/3037811-abviewer-9-1-keygen-upd-crack
https://coub.com/stories/3037810-itactil-lider-11-crack-_hot_
https://coub.com/stories/3037809-crack-repack-multimax-3-29
https://coub.com/stories/3037808-anti-deep-freeze-06rar-top
https://coub.com/stories/3037807-winfeed-2-8-full-cracked-new
https://coub.com/stories/3037806-winrar-activator-kafnan
https://coub.com/stories/3037805-datacash230descarga-de-emulador-
ipn-para-neodata-2014-39-tailbali
https://coub.com/stories/3037804-the-crew-2-digital-deluxe-editio
n-3dm-best-full-unlocked-repack-serial-key-keygen

url=https://newfasttadalafil.com/ says...Kamagra Oral Jelly Online Kaufen buy cialis Ewggzm Viagra Without A Doctor Prescription https://newfasttadalafil.com/ - Cialis Qflyzb In this way light can be confined to travel within a glass cylinder as shown in Fig.
buy cialis
Oops!
Oops, you forgot something.